Why is arceus uber

Anyways, that thread is a real blast from the past for me! So you may be wondering: why the hell did I just rant about the past that long? I just wanted to give some prespective on what I remember about the Ubers community here: I actually disagree with the take that the Ubers community was extremely against the introduction of Arceus back in If anything, it was viewed as an inevitability of sorts, and the opinions on Farceus's place in the metagame were pretty varried, it wasn't a universal "wow fuck that thing"!

It also helps that gen 5 wasn't out yet either, so there were no real comparisons to Arceus's impact either, this was all we had outside of that period in DP before my time where Arceus was allowed. I'd also like to address the whole balance argument for gen 4 Ubers: Of course, I haven't played it seriously in almost a decade, so I'm sure the metagame is very different than it used to be, and the community is totally different too.

However, I can't help but chuckle a bit when gen 4 Ubers is being called well balanced, as I remember back when it was the active Ubers metagame, the community used to RELISH in its precieved imbalance. If you look at contemproary gen 4 Ubers usage stats, Kyogre's usage was way beyond anything that was considered "healthy" for a metagame at the time.

Ubers was often sold back then as a fast paced, ferocious metagame where the idea of "balance" is thrown out the window for exhilrating battles with the strongest mons in the game. It was also notable for being so imbalanced, that strange Pokemon you wouldn't see elsewhere would creep out of the woodworks to help teams adapt to the power level.

The most obvious example was how DPP Ubers was really the only place you'd get weather wars that gen.

Alright, almost back on track here! I want to respond to this post of Myzozoa's first to set the frame of what I personally felt about Farceus at the time.

Writing long Policy debates usually isn't something I do but this particular issue is one I feel quite strongly about. I've reconsidered the stance I've had for the last few years but I'll try and be brief. Arceus' ban in the fourth generation of Ubers is a unique circumstance that has rarely been questioned since it was decided over ten years ago due to the unique circumstances of it only being obtainable by event at Level It's unrestricted form was never made available and was banned for that reason.

The Arceus that was released via Events, and was dubbed Farceus, can only obtain a maximum of EVs in each stat but it was made obtainable in the games.

This restriction was never properly implemented on Shoddy Battle which was the standard simulator at the time of the decision however and Farceus was never integrated into the tier because of that. Though this restriction placed on Arceus in the tier was necessary at the time due to there being no way to obtain Arceus without them beyond external means it is now arguably unnecessary with a method of obtaining an Arceus fully capable of being EV trained being discovered in January of Arceus was banned from DPP Ubers due to being unobtainable without external modification of the game and this method uses a variation of the glitch similar to one that was used to get Darkrai and Shaymin in the game before they were officially released.

This is the only instance of being able to obtain an official Pokemon that is otherwise unobtainable in a generation that has ended.

Using glitches to obtain unobtainable Pokemon at all is unheard of in this age. In this generation alone we have glitches that are allowed like the Pomeg Glitch and those that are forbidden like the Rage Glitch. Where Full Arceus falls in this is a difficult choice and we as a community would need to think about it. I personally believe if we knew about this glitch at the time the original version that allowed Darkrai and Shaymin was discovered we would have kept Arceus unbanned and not really thought about it otherwise.

The bigger mistake that should be fixed is disallowing Farceus. It unlike Full Arceus is completely obtainable and has been for years. The excuse that we never got around to programming it is very weak and would never be tolerated today. The EV cap limits FArceus quite significantly, forcing it to be slower then a variety of common metagame staples like Garchomp and the Latis for example. That and while Arceus is effectively 17 different mons which allows it to fulfill niches that no other mon can it also means every form has a certain opportunity cost to it which can be seen in how we deal with Arceus in later generations.

Shrang did a good job summarizing all of the individual forms showing each is surely manageable. FArceus would be omnipresent but not overcentralizing in the least and would add a certain skill to both building teams and playing them. We should absolutely unban FArceus from DPP Ubers and see how the metagame reacts to it and gave the community a brief period to consider Full Arceus so we may make a conclusive decision on whether to allow it or not.

The decision to keep FArceus out of the tier though goes against the values Smogon's suspecting process and the core philosophies of Ubers and should be reversed. Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan. Creator of PS. I'm just going to focus on glitches for a bit: It's impossible to draw a hard line between what is or isn't a glitch.

I mean, sure, a lot of them are obvious. But what about Hyper Beam in Gen 1? What about Gen 5 sleep mechanics? We've always faithfully simulated in-battle glitches, with very few exceptions.

Out-of-battle glitches, in the past, have been dealt with on a case-by-case basis - mostly by just rejecting the ones that would break the metagame. There are only a few competitively-relevant ones I can think of: Pomeg Glitch, sure LC does special pleading about this but it's not like the sim implements it as LC-only. Mimic Glitch, no. Is that a glitch? Should we "fix" it by letting it learn Head Smash anyway? Anyway, a review of precedent shows that we ban specific glitches if they'd really mess up the metagame, but otherwise accurately simulate them.

Feel free to ban the Void Glitch because it's overpowered, but I'm not a huge fan of banning it "just" because it's a glitch. Personally, I think forgetting to release the Azure Flute was the real glitch. Last edited: Dec 14, My vote is to keep things the same and leave Arceus banned. It's been almost a decade since this metagame was relevant so I don't think adding such a centralizing Pokemon is a good move this late in the game.

Cynara Banned deucer. At the current moment according to all the information provided and the background research I did on this topic, I could not find a single tiering decision to ban Arceus, and simply for simulator limitations or players simply not wanting it in the tier for no strong reasonings.

There isn't any apt discussion on the topic even when Arceus events were released during DPP. The thread Nayrz references is Pre-Arceus release so it is understandable why it was not allowed in the metagame at the time. Upon release it should have been revised and allowed in the tier because Arceus is legal. It is exactly like not allowing Marshadow in SM Ubers upon release simply because players don't want to give it a chance in the tier.

I feel that keeping Arceus out of the tier is a mistake that was made at the time and actively goes against Smogon tiering policy. We should not double down on mistakes arguably and strongly consider reversing this decision to be consistent with our own tiering policies.

One of the mission statements of Ubers tiering policy is to be the tier with the least amount of bans.

How can we say we strive for ban minimisation when we have a Pokemon banned from DPP for no tiering reason? I understand some concerns of this thread have been raised against unbanning Arceus such as competitive balance being the main one. I don't think Arceus would be a broken or completely unbalanced Pokemon in the metagame, there have been various tournaments throughout the past few years and upon observation, DPP Arceus metagames appear playable, nor does it impose the same ramifications on a metagame such as Mega Rayquaza does in ORAS and SM which forced offense vs offense games due to its overwhelming offensive power.

I will humbly admit that Arceus would be a metagame defining Pokemon, present on every team causing centralisation. Over-centralisation was a point brought against it being in the tier, however in Ubers policy, over-centralisation is not a factor that is considered and playability is one of the most important attributes that is considered when handling Ubers tiering.

Even in the hypothetical instance that Arcues is found to be broken or unbalanced in the DPP Ubers metagame. There is little harm in us re-evaluating it and considering a ban via tiering later down the line, but as it stands I am in full belief that Arceus deserves a chance to actually be tried and tested before we can even form these sound conclusions of the impact on the metagame. Another argument brought up is that DPP Ubers is a 10 year old metagame and should be left alone because the generation is considered too old to tier, this was a point brought up against the DPP OU Latias discussion.

This feels very subjective and is not a issue not bound to just the tiering of DPP Ubers. Exactly how old is "too old" for a metagame to be exempt from tiering? There is a old generations council for OU and there are active discussions and tiering changes for all generations including those that are older than DPP.

I don't really feel this is a strong argument against allowing Arceus in the tier and whether we should still tier our old generations feels like it should be its own policy discussion outside of this thread.

Finally, I just want to touch of Farceus vs Fullceus. Glitches feel like a extremely grey area to me in discussions, what we allow and what we don't allow in our tiering policies isn't exactly clear cut and the preference to allow glitches in tiering is to avoid them. Some players actively support Farceus for metagame reasons and this may also be a benefit along with policy consistencies which I am in favour of.

One of my other reasonings that I a,m against Fullceus is that Azure Flute Arceus isn't actually released and several players share the common opinion that Shaymin and Darkrai should not have been allowed before their release either, I agree with this.

I also share the sentiment of Mr. Farceus vs Fullceus could potentially be a discussion again of its own later on if necessary. Last edited: Dec 17, Leave Arceus banned. This is a mon that if unbanned will literally change the entire metagame and turn everything on its head. Part of the reason we never tested it in the past was nobody that actually played the tier wanted it tested.

Do you really need a stronger reason as to why someone wouldn't want to test Arceus? DPP Ubers is perfect the way it is and shouldn't have mons retconned in for the sake of something being legal. Keep in mind, I am purely talking about Farceus here. The idea of Fullceus being legal is just stupid and shouldn't even be a discussion. Alright it's time to make the call on this.

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Main Quest 13 Answers. Ask A Question. Browse More Questions. Keep me logged in on this device. Forgot your username or password? Sure you can argue all around is good, but individually isn't uber material.

User Info: Aeroguy24 Aeroguy24 13 years ago 3 Because it is so versatile. User Info: foge foge 13 years ago 6 [This message was deleted at the request of the original poster].

User Info: yosouf06 yosouf06 13 years ago 10 No problem guys.. How do I trade with other people Help. Where can I find the move defog? Side Quest. How long does it take to hatch rioulus egg? How do you delete a save file to start over? Tech Support. There is no BL metagame, as such there is no "ban list". There is no NU metagame, as such, there is no "ban list". So we can rule out "it's too strong" as a reason why it's banned.

It's banned because we have no proof that it's real. The only way to get it is an Action Replay, so until Nintendo acknowledges its existence by it via movie, event or otherwise , it does not exist, and you can't use Pokemon which do not exist. User Info: OmniMidKnight. More topics from this board What kinds of fire type pokemon are in sinnoh? Build 7 Answers Where can I find the move defog? Side Quest 3 Answers How long does it take to hatch rioulus egg? Side Quest 3 Answers How do you delete a save file to start over?

Tech Support 13 Answers What is the best way to level a Pokemon? Main Quest 13 Answers. Ask A Question. Browse More Questions.